TV Tonight is adding a new section: the Late List.
In response to on-going viewer complaints about programmes continually starting and finishing late, this will operate as a crowd-sourcing chance for you to name and shame them.
When you see a programme starting later than its advertised time, you can register the information on the Late List. Over time, this will accrue some of the worst offenders. That information will then be published periodically.
Today the Sunday Age and the Sun-Herald have announced the Late List in an article about late programming, and the results of the Audience Inventory.
Over the last four years the annual survey has shown viewers’ #1 gripe is late starting / finishing times, together with EPGs not being updated. Readers named ABC, Foxtel and SBS as the most reliable networks for punctuality with Nine, Seven and TEN the most unreliable. An OzTAM report commissioned by The Sunday Age supports the results.
Nine’s Melbourne programming chief, Len Downs, told Fairfax, ”One has to be honest about it.
”When your goal is winning the ratings and you’ve got a successful show, it becomes tactical. If you’ve got the opportunity to overrun the start of a competing program, then that’s what you do.”
The Late List will be added to the site’s main menu and trialled until the end of the ratings season with a view to becoming a permanent feature.
You can check it out here.
Good idea.Since the FTA stations are now aware of this they might actually do something about it
The whole landscape was summed up by readers in the Audience Inventory. The next snapshot of landscape will be via Late List data.
For a single show, yes. But what of the whole landscape? Who are the worst offenders and at what point should viewers reasonably assume they can no longer trust a network to broadcast a certain genre of show in a watchable manner?
You have some excellent and detailed posts on individual cases. And if there’s a single tag you use for these they could even all be listed in a search result. But that’s not the same as stating ‘This channel has performed major scheduling changes on 3 dramas and 5 sci-fi shows in the last twelve months’, backed up with the data. I would have thought a lot of readers (including channel ad bookers) would be interested in that.
The best way to track a show’s movements is to use Show Tags.
This is a great initiative. It would be very useful to also have a single place on the site to track all the shows networks have made virtually unwatchable by changing times, days and broadcast order, totally abandoning the schedule, and pulling shows mid-season.
With late starts, at least the viewer can get into the habit of recording important shows and adding on half an hour. (Eps can sometimes start several mins early, too, of course.)
But hiding the season finale of a show on a totally different day (as Nine recently did with Fringe) is a crime against TV Land, and it would be great to name and shame the worst repeat offenders!
A sterling idea, David. Perhaps it would be less work if, for 7, 9, and 10, we only made an entry whenever a program actually started at the advertised time? You’re welcome.
Re commercial digital channels: not watching a lot these days but they seem to mostly be within a couple of minutes of advertised times, altho’ they will start early as often as late.
This comment is advertised to be be posted at 3pm!
If OzTam records in half hour blocks, why not just record at 10, 15 and 20 minutes into the block and average. Or is that too easy?
Then again, OzTam is only concerned with numbers/time not number/show.
I called the ACMA today regarding TEN’s EPG not reflecting accurate start/finish times from Saturday-Monday. They seemed very concerned the accuracy issue has been going on for 6 months and they [TEN] have failed to pick up on the problem, particularly from the Parental Lock-Out aspect. The guy I spoke to looked at TEN’s EPG while I was on the phone with him and he agreed there is a problem. He has sent an email to TEN’s Senior Broadcast Engineer requesting an explanation. Fingers crossed action will be taken.
At the moment, The X Factor…..it was about 30 minutes overtime on Monday.
Whichever EPG you are using. If you see a time that differs from the airtime, regardless of which, you can file it.
Hi David, I have a quick question about completing the Late List. The section “Advertised Time (EPG)”, should this be the time stated on the free-to-air EPG? Foxtel’s EPG has different start/finish times than the free-to-air EPG.
Would you consider having sections on the Late List like so:
Advertised Time (Free-to-Air EPG)
Advertised Time (Foxtel EPG)
@darkolandbox: Best check your time zone settings via manual settings on both sets, I live in northern NSW (prime 7, abc,sbs) near Qld border, on good days I receive up to 39 channels(but myswitch experts can still not tell me where we get the toowoomba, darling downs and qld abc and sbs signals from and nor do they seem to care.
@david knox Many thanks for your late list efforts , and jokingly not showing ingratitude,but there seems to be a box missing in the late list? there should be a box for “All Channels At All Times”, except for the programming of the commercials(Adds) as they seem to be able to co-ordinate them to within seconds.
In general it seems to me that going digital has definitely improved picture quality(most times) for us in the bush. But programming timing and accuracy seems to have gone the same way as the analogue network, but what I find most frustrating and unfortunately with the ABC one of the most reliable of programmers, is where if I use EPG to record to USB, the ABC regularly change regular programmes such as 7.30 rep. catalyst, gruen, 4 corners, media watch, QandA and lateline etc, and whilst usually very accurate to scheduled programme times etc.
Unfortunately the ABC will vary start/finish times by only a minute or two each day/week, this then conflicts with the previous EPG settings for daily programmes, seems a shame with all the sophisticated USB and TV’s etc now available, these minute changes mean much deleting of pre programmed EPG settings. Shame! with a little more thought by a few, thousands would find life so much easier and possibly vastly reduce dis-satisfactory reports and comments
ACMA is supposed to monitor networks for EPG accuracy.
Darwinite: You can include Foxtel and include early starts in the fields provided.
@ davodavo6666
Not sure what area you’re in, but…
Up here on the Qld/NSW border, the regional stations used to have rubbish EPG times.
I noticed in my travels that in some other areas, they were quite accurate, so I called Prime and NBN one day to ask why the difference? Spoke to some very pleasant and helpful techs (unlike when calling the metro stations) who were surprised nobody had complained, as this was a glitch. It was fixed the-next-day in both cases and hasn’t gone wrong since.
Perhaps a call to your local station? Or, call the ACMA. Stations are actually supposed to broadcast accurate EPG data, despite opinions to the contrary.
Should cable also be added to this but for the early start list?. Recorded something the other day, always have a 5 minute buffer for the start and still missed the start of the show.
Have now added further start buffer so I don’t miss the start of the show for next time.
@ William
The ACMA call it breaching. You know something they don’t?
Last Monday night, Suits was running at least 25 minutes late on 7 Sydney. Had it on IQ and totally missed the end. Cranky.
This goes back a while now but does anyone remember when 2.5 men took over at 9 as their 7pm offering in 2008.We were waiting somewhere between 5 and 8 minutes past the hour for A Trashy Current Affair to end and for the laughter to start.There are others I could list too.
Classic example,wanted a shower but still wanted to watch Mrs Browns Boys.
No problems, had shower and sat down in front of TV and its just starting now at exactly 15 mins late,bless you channel 7.
msd- They actually update it on their EPGs on Saturday’s but when Sunday comes it just goes back to the normal time I hardly called that breaching
great idea, though i cant believe that nine’s melbourne program chief is actually, honest/arrogant enough to admit finishing programs late as a ratings strategy.
also congrats on this feature being covered in in The Age, hopefully this will mean that people who don’t know about tvtonight will now vist the site to report late start times as well as become regular readers.
I remind myself of 5 examples.
Nine’s short lived “The Boss is Coming to Dinner”. 8:35-9:48 pm
The Project “Last Thursday”. 6:00-7:04 pm. Enough time for Kar-(trashian).
MasterChef “Ep in S2″. 7:30-8:41 pm.
MKR “Monday ep this year”. 7:37-8:48 pm.
MasterChef Finale S2 2010. 7:30-9:55 pm! Was due 9:30 pm. That’s 25 minutes to far!!!
One thing the newspaper article forgets is BB 2012! That’s already OT and tomorrow is 7:01-8:38 pm!
Sorry about the ! everywhere, but it gets so annoying time after time, day after day, network after network.
David….I watch 7TWO a lot….and they can run late ….quite often and quite late…cannot recall actuals right now…but will make notes in future…
@Aussie
Yep, same issue with 7 everywhere. Their multichannels are ok, but the main one is only seeing the EPG updated sporadically and when it is it only applies until midnight that night.
I’d suggest contacting the ACMA, they have a group who look after EPG issues and their guidelines. They put me in touch with one of the ‘engineers’ at 7 who is an evasive little person. It would appear that at the moment 7 are holding back the EPG accuracy updates on the nights that this serves their agenda. (as the quote from Len Downs bears out).
9 are actually being good about the accuracy updates (in an offhanded way), they are sending them out well in advance. Trouble is, they’re not actually accurate. On Tuesday nights I’ve noted that shows like Anger Management always start a good 3 to 4 minutes late, even when the EPG has been updated.
The multichannel guides suck in regional areas. I’ve seen late night shows on 11 (like Sex and the City) and 7mate (Blokesworld) start 15 minutes late. In general, if you flick between metro and regional broadcasts metro have times like 10.38 whereas regional still have 10.30 and the start exactly the same time. I live on the Sunshine Coast.
David,
The multichannels tend to be a lot more accurate. Having said that, none of the commercial staions show more than a day and a half of accurate times into the future.
Currently both 10 and 7 are playing sillybuggers with their main channel, deliberately holding back accurate EPG data until a matter of hours out from broadcast. This is against the ACMA guidelines too, but having spoken to them, it turns out they are a bit of a toothless tiger.
This is ridiculous, given that all programming and advertising is distributed using digital media that carries the EPG data with it. There is no reason they can’t broadcast an accurate EPG a week into the future… As the ABC already do.
Is it a requirement of their license that the EPG is sent out with the digital signal? Surely it has to be accurate? I dont mind them being late now and again but i do object to them deciding to not tell me.
I’ve gone 360 on it,up until a few months ago it annoyed the hell out of me now i plan around it I find it often means I get to finish the one I am watching with enough time to get a drink do whats natural and move on.
The results will be interesting but one issue I can see arising with this process is that I have noticed some shows no longer advertise a start time at all. GCB, Underbelly, winner& losers are all advertised as “after x factor/BB”. no time given to enter into that box.
In my experience multichannels are perfectly on time. However at the beginning of the year Six Feet Under on 7TWO was pushed back (i miss the endings even if I recorded the next two shows) but I think this was due to the Australian Open.
The culprits are Channel 7, 9 and 10. However I do notice Big Brother finishing exactly on time.
It’s clear that self-regulation re. the EPG isn’t working.
As another person mentioned, Network Ten does not update their on-screen EPG on Sat, Sun and Mon. This means Ten, Eleven and One have the wrong start/end times 3 days out of 7. Surely this is in breach of the Data Broadcasting Act guidelines? Why hasn’t ACMA pulled Ten up on it?
Recently, Seven hasn’t been updating their EPG on random days throughout the week. Perversely, this means Nine, although they are just as guilty of late running shows and not sticking to advertised times, are currently the more reliable of three commercial networks at keeping the on-screen, official EPG up to date with “real” start times each day.
Re. multichannels. I’ve noticed things starting early, especially during the day. The midday movie on GEM will often start at 11.50 am, for example. Ditto for shows late at night on the main channels, presumably because they sold less ads for that time slot? Frankly, this is just as annoying as starting late. Instead of missing the end, you miss the beginning …. grrr
Interestingly, I have 2 different digital receivers and the EPG on each device regularly displays quite a different time for the same show. Still haven’t figured out how that can happen.
As the EPG times can shift as the it gets closer to a program start time, it is doubly difficult to reliably record programs on different channels that have end/begin times that are near or adjacent.
Add a late running show to the mix, and there go my plans out the window.
@house-elf
@Mr. J
Agreed.
I remember when all this “late running” began. 2001 Big Brother Final, went for like 4 hours. pushing the premier of “the secret life of us” to like 1030. since then when ever a show has the ratings (esp a live show) they will keep it running. it became the norm for shows to finish at 5 or 10 minutes late it was how you would suck people in, if you switch to 7 at 930 to watch something you would have to watch the last 10 minutes of the previous show, this would hopefully get people to watch that show next week.
but the thing that really pissed me off, was daryl somers and dwts, there was 1 tuesday were it was advertised All Saints would be on after the dwts final, eventually due to daryl not shutting up the show ran over, over time and All Saints wasnt shown that night or that week.
I blame dwts and daryl somers for helping to kill off All Saints, because people didn’t want to have sit threw him banging on about bs, they stopped watching/waiting for All Saints. the big brother live eviction on 9 now pushes shows back by up to 10 minutes.
Hi David, with the example I gave below about Channel 7, it’s only affecting the main channel. 7TWO and 7Mate show 100% accuracy with shows starting/finishing on time in my experience.
Woody likes this
Are people noticing Multichannels on time or late?
@ Bazza: yes you are experiencing the same problems with Channel 7. Example the other night they had Parks and Recreation scheduled for 23.48 with a finish time of 00.00. I don’t think so. They really need to address this. I’ve called them 3 times and they say all is ok on their side. I’m in Sydney metro, so I’m not sure what the rest of the country is experiencing.
Even EPGs are irrelevant which some people kee coming back to “oh but the EPG has been updated so just go by that time. Even when the EPG has been updated to say 8.42, all during the day a network will be playing ads saying 8.30 tonight. Now that’s false advertising. That’s not sticking to the scheduled time. This has got to stop
And that attitude by Nine is exactly why I watch nothing on Nine, and why i’ve stopped watching commercial networks.
Has anyone else noticed TEN’s EPG (free-to-air) never shows accurate start times from Saturday to Monday evening? This also effects ELEVEN and ONE. Interestingly, on Foxtel’s EPG it’s ok.
I’ve also noticed with Channel 7 (main channel only) they only seem to update the EPG up until midnight. So basically everything past midnight right through to the following afternoon around 5pm doesn’t show accurate start/finish times. I have noticed this only happens every other day. There is obviously a bug or something in the file the send out.
Is it just me??
Well done for this initiative David! Hopefully the networks start to take notice and make some changes, although I’m not holding my breath.
@Mr J
But why is it that Australia is one of the very few countries that seem to continually overrun programs. America is very strict on it and in the UK they even advertise a starting time of 8:10pm for X Factor for example. Why can’t our networks show us viewers some respect already. Either give us the proper starting time or stop showing too many ads. Its that bloody simple.
One prime example is Today Tonight overrunning until 7:03-05pm every night yet on Friday when footy is running it finishes right on 7pm. Give me a break already. Networks needs to be slapped with penalties imo. Its not on. Live sporting events should be the only reason a show runs over time imo.
Over seven minutes?
Our society has become a bunch of whiners who will complain about anything just for the sake of it, there are much bigger issues in the world.
I have never thought it is as bad as people make out. I just accept that times on promos are rough guides rounded to the nearest half hour. If you need to know the exact time just check the EPG. It’s not that hard, I find the EPG to be very accurate, usually to the second.
”When your goal is winning the ratings and you’ve got a successful show, it becomes tactical. If you’ve got the opportunity to overrun the start of a competing program, then that’s what you do.”
That’s a really annoying and arrogant statement. Ratings were won and lost in TV land before they started using this awful tactic. If they started to treat viewing with respect they might get it back in kind.
Good one David.Looking Forward to seeing List.
Maybe one day,tv Stations will take notice.
Thank you for a great site.
Great !
Absolutely no excuse for not sticking to scheduled times.
Show duration is usually a constant and they know how long this and commercials run
If something starts late then they have oversold the ad space for that time slot
So annoying to pad recordings by 20mins only to still miss endings
So annoying its not funny. Can’t wait to give you some even tonight. lol
Jezza: Then the Late List is for you.
A: As indicated, added to the top Menu shortly.
TomothyD: If filling out the EPG section then best to use the most recent info. There are other fields in case you can see conflicting info elsewhere.
Bazza / Jennome: Looks like we’ll need to get a bigger boat!
What really annoys me is when the EPG says 7.38 but the show doesnt start til 7.45 :\
Well I’ve got news for Len Downs, I would often miss the end of one program rather than the beginning of another. At the end, you know everything will work out okay … but you need to see the beginning of a program to get what it’s all about. Miss that and you miss the point. (This is not always the case of course, but that theory works for most programs)
Anyway, all networks play that game so you can almost count on everyone running 5-10 minutes late and adjust your viewing accordingly.
It’s still unfuriating. And David, will your survey include logging listed programs which simply don’t appear? i.e. programs listed in newspapers and printed guides, specially later in the evening, which are just dumped for no apparent reason and no explanation.
Great idea David! Will use it where I can.
Cool. David where is it or will it be on the front page? Because other than this article I can’t see it. I assume this article won’t always be around.
I like when they do have accurate EPGs but I’ll admit I still prefer as mentioned elsewhere if a show is advertised for 8.30pm it shows up before 8.35pm. Plus no silly timeslots of an hour or 45 minute show during prime time of 8pm or 9pm or 10pm. Unless every channel starts doing it. It can and will cause me to avoid some channels. Including ABC News 24 during prime time (except a few times a year and I wish I was joking ) .
We might need another field for “duration”. Lately, a number of shows that air just after midnight on 7 have had incorrect durations.
This is brought about by the fact that they only have accurate EPG times up till midnight (when they have them at all), beyond that the EPG defaults back to strict half-hourly start and end times. You often end up with a program that should run half an hour, starting at say 23:48 and then shown as ending at 00:00, when it fact it ends at 00:18.
Shows that are often truncated in this way include 30 Rock and It’s Always Sunny. Oddly, Prime don’t seem to suffer the same problem. When they insert their “accurate” EPG times on any given afternoon, the EPG will be accurate for at least the next day and a half.
David, with the EPG time submission: Should we put the time we first saw it in the EPG or most recent? Example: I could look today at a show for Wednesday evening and it says 7:30pm. By Wednesday evening it may have been updated to 7:38pm.
My PVR record planner does’t alter times if a show moves, it picks up the original time slot.